This week we look at the future of work and art, by stepping into the world of Executive Director of The Goss-Michael Foundation, Joyce Goss.
[00:00:00] – Joyce Goss
Art is good for business, even like in banks or corporations, just having an art collection, it encourages conversation. I think it also stimulates creativity.
[00:00:17] – Doug Foulkes
Welcome to The Future of Work, the podcast that looks at, yes, you’ve guessed it, the future of work.
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It’s brought to you by WNDYR, for their blog Chaos and Rocketfuel. WNDYR are productivity and human behavior specialists who use technology to help us humans on our digital journey from disruption to transformation. Find out more at WNDYR dot com. That’s WNDYR dot com.
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I’m your host Doug Foulkes. And along with WNDYR CEO Claire Haidar. We regularly meet up with industry experts and mavericks to get their take on work in the future. This week we look at the future of work and art by stepping into the world of Executive Director of the Goss Michael Foundation, Joyce Goss. The Goss Michael Foundation is internationally renowned for its collection of important contemporary and modern British art. Joyce is a leading philanthropist and activist in the art world and has served in executive positions, a board member, and chair of key events for The Family Place, MTV RE:DEFINE, U.S. Fund for UNICEF, and the Nasher Sculpture Center, among others.
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We’re going to focus the conversation around the Goss Michael Foundation and the amazing work that they do. But let’s start by finding out what sparked the art bug in Joyce’s life.
[00:01:41] – Joyce Goss
I have two segments on that one. The first was when I was little. Growing up, I took ballet lessons and I was just really into ballet. My mother bought a little Daygar print that she hung in my bedroom. A little ballerina, you know he’s famous for his ballerinas. And so I would stare at that every night when I was going to bed and think about how I was going to be a world class ballerina.
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And I had this, I grew up in the 70s, so they had this doll that was called Dance Irina. She would twirl and twirl and twirl, she was battery operated, and I don’t know, just staring at that print every night just kind of opened up a new world for me and definitely made me dream. The second fold of that would be when I started working with Kenny at the gallery. It just opened up a whole new world for me. And then ultimately, when we converted to a foundation, getting the opportunity to meet all these fabulous World-Class artists and arguably some of the best in the world, getting to know them on a personal level.
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It changes your whole outlook, or did for me, on art and made me kind of understand where they were coming from.
[00:02:46] – Doug Foulkes
Joyce I’m going to stay with your childhood. You grew up on a farm in Pleasanton. What was the impact that had on you as an adult?
[00:02:55] – Joyce Goss
I grew up with three sisters, so we weren’t out in the fields toiling every day. But my father did instill, and my mother too, the value of hard work and, you know, taking something and having a lot of pride and joy in your work. Also, I think humility.
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We learned how to accept and celebrate what we had, but also when you did have a success, you celebrate then, accept that as well. So I think humility and then also probably the biggest thing is to be adaptable, when you’re growing crops and that also just, you know, day to day practice, when you have a piece of equipment break down or you have a worker that doesn’t show up, you have to be able to adapt and make changes.
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And so I would always watch my father when he had some kind of a crisis come up, how he just, you know, made a new plan, set a new course and was adapted.
[00:03:48] – Claire Haidar
Out of curiosity, what crops was it that your family grew on the farm?
[00:03:54] – Joyce Goss
Well, there was a lot he was kind of a farmer and a rancher. So initially when we were growing up, he had wheat and maize and some cotton and then peanuts. He was a big peanut producer. And then also he raised Charolais cattle.
[00:04:10] – Claire Haidar
It’s the real formative years of your life that were on the farm.
[00:04:14] – Joyce Goss
Yeah, it was. And it was fun. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I mean, it definitely gave me a different perspective on things. But I think, you know, always hard work, I think was the biggest thing.
[00:04:25] – Doug Foulkes
You mentioned earlier briefly, your brother, Kenny. You’ve traveled this journey in art together with him. Tell us, what’s it like traveling a journey with your brother?
[00:04:39] – Joyce Goss
So Kenny is actually my brother-in-law, but nobody really knows that because we don’t really advertise that. I’m married to Kenny’s brother. But Kenny and I have always gotten along so well. Even when Tim, my husband and I first started dating, Kenny and I would sneak off and go to the Wal-Mart to go shopping or, you know, in Dallas, we’d go to museums, or shopping was a big deal for us. But museums and I don’t know, we just got along.
[00:05:04]
So we really are like brother and sister. So when people say that, we just kind of go with it because it’s kind of confusing. And then people go, oh, he’s your brother in law, but, we get along great, we’ve always just kind of clicked from the very beginning, and so we have a really deep friendship and a great relationship. Kenny started Goss Gallery in 2005 and he had that for about a year, which I came to work and run the gallery because he and George were still in London quite a bit.
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He trusted me to run the gallery. And after that, Kenny and George started collecting all this great art and some of it museum quality that was just sitting in storage. So that’s why we all discussed and started discussions about forming the foundation where they could exhibit those great works of art in Dallas, which is where Kenny grew up. Kind of start educating the local public on British art, which really wasn’t a huge thing back in, you know, when they started the foundation.
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And still, I don’t think any of the museums had a Damien Hirst piece. I don’t know if they ever exhibited Damien Hirst honestly. And so bringing British contemporary art to this area, that you know, some people may not ever have had the opportunity to see and bringing some of the fabulous artists like Tracey Emin, and Damien never came, but Michael Craig-Martin did.
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And Marc Quinn and a lot of these fabulous YBA artists that were from London.
[00:06:32] – Claire Haidar
Doug was actually asking me whether the focus is very much on British artists and I would love to hear your thoughts on that? You know, was that very much where Kenny wanted to go with this. Did he want it to be a focus on British work that wasn’t really showcased and highlighted in the US market?
[00:06:51] – Joyce Goss
Originally, that wasn’t his intent when he first started collecting. But, you know, the fact that they lived in London and Kenny did for so long, they would go to a lot of museums. Kenny had a dear friend that would take him to the museums. And she had studied art history and, you know, increased his knowledge about the historical aspect of art. But George got to meet some of these artists, Damien Hirst, and Tracey Emin is a dear friend.
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And Michael Craig-Martin, who is considered the godfather of the YBA movement because he taught a lot of these students, Sarah Lucas, who is, you know, a fantastic artist, Richard Patterson, who actually lives in Dallas.
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And so he got to be friends with a lot of these and of course, the dealers as well. And it was just a natural progression that he and George started collecting the British artists. And then, you know, when they decided to open the foundation, it was kind of a joy for them to be able to bring the art to Dallas and exhibit it. And then it just kind of worked into to collecting British arts. And then they just started focusing the British artists in the collection.
[00:07:57] – Claire Haidar
Can you maybe just expand a little bit on the YBA movement and why it’s significant and why it’s important?
[00:08:06] – Joyce Goss
Sure. So the YBA which are the Young British Artists, they all laugh now saying that really they’re the OBAs because they’re all in their probably 50s now, but or 40s and 50s. And so it was started in the 90s.
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Craig Martin taught Damien Hirst for one and several of the other students. But London was the art scene at that time. So he encouraged artists to go out and be free thinkers. And so, Damien, with a group of friends, Sarah Lucas, and Tracey, and some others started Freeze. It was a way for them to exhibit their works and make themselves known. And they were also kind of a wild group in the 90s.
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And they were young and then started to get famous and wealthy and but still had a little wild streak. So that was kind of the big movement in the 90s, the YBAs and London was the centre of the art scene.
[00:08:58] – Claire Haidar
You can definitely see that they were a very tight knit, close group of artists because there’s a theme that runs through their work. It’s very, very apparent, you know, when you actually start looking at their work rather than looking at them as individual artists, but you actually look at them more holistically as a group.
[00:09:15] – Joyce Goss
Oh, definitely. A lot of them dated, you know, different people. Some of them got married some of them got divorced. So, yeah, it was definitely a young group and they were fun and they were kind of the “it group” in the 90s. And a lot of their work is, about themselves, especially artists like Tracey. A lot of her work are paintings and sculptures or are from her own experiences growing up.
[00:09:37] – Claire Haidar
Talking about the artist themselves. George Michael’s legacy carries through very strongly within the foundation. How does his legacy impact the way you and Kenny work on a day to day basis?
[00:09:50] – Joyce Goss
When George and Kenny first started the foundation. George loved the art, but it was more Kenny’s, I think, Kenny’s thing for lack of a better thing to say. George definitely was interested, but his art was more in the music and Kenny’s was more in the visual arts and in the YBAs, and George loved it. Don’t get me wrong. But he wanted Kenny to kind of focus on the art.
[00:10:12]
But that said, George has always been very, or was always, very philanthropic, and he gave away tons and tons of money, most of it anonymously. He didn’t want to be known as the guy flashing around the money. He really wanted to make a difference. And so one of his points when we started the foundation was that we had to give back to the community. And so that was kind of my direction that I took with the foundation to. Obviously with the art, but also getting more involved in like The Family Place, and the North Texas Food Bank, and UNICEF of course.
[00:10:45]
And so we would offer the foundation space to these organizations for free. And we’d give our manpower and our mailing list to try to help these various organizations raise money and maybe gain a little bit more recognition and help them raise money. So it was kind of a two fold when we started the foundation, giving back to the community, but also educating and inspiring artists too.
[00:11:08] – Claire Haidar
One of the things that I really admire about what you guys are doing in the foundation. Is the way you guys are supporting and developing emerging artists. And there is something that I feel within that, and within the framework that you guys apply, in the foundation that can really be applied in corporate context that isn’t really spoken about or even considered in many ways.
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And so I’d like to ask you and I’d like to hear your thoughts around this. Art and work intersect in very, very interesting ways.
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Share with us how you guys work in the foundation with artists. How do you guys go about identifying work and how do you guys go about supporting artists to move from a place of just being an artist that’s more a hobby to actually somebody who’s making a career and a living from this. What is that development framework look like?
[00:12:08] – Joyce Goss
Well, I think that one of the ways we help artists is our Artist and Residence program, which, you know, that’s on pause at the moment. But we’ve had, I don’t know, five or six artists in residence, some local, some international that we would bring to Dallas. Like you’re saying, art is work and these artists maybe start out as a hobby, but they don’t always necessarily put in their mind the fact that this is a business, too, that this is a way for them to make a living and they have to think about it as well.
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So when we start the Artist and Residence program, we would have the artist come to town, and they would obviously work on paintings, mainly paintings.
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That was a little bit easier than sculpture, so most of the times we’d have them do paintings and they’d hone their craft, but also, Kenny and I would encourage them to start networking and trying to sell themselves. So we would take them to different events or museum openings and try to introduce them to collectors, new collectors and old collectors and try to make them understand the value of networking and selling themselves. We really strongly encourage that and also they needed to kind of work on the business side of it.
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Learning to sell themselves, I think is the hardest thing and practicing even like public speaking, whether it’s to, you know, a small group of collectors or to, you know, a roomful of people. I think that’s one thing that’s really hard for some of the artists to learn, because usually they’re more creative and not so much outspoken. I mean, there’s some that are, you know, natural salesmen, so to speak. There are some great artists that can speak, you know, at the drop of a hat.
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But then others, it’s you know, it’s kind of a learning situation for them.
[00:13:49] – Claire Haidar
Organizations are so fractured in terms of how they work. And yet because we’re becoming more and more globalized as a world and because we’re dealing with a younger generation that are so consumerized in how they engage with the world, that organizations are just completely having to reinvent themselves in terms of like how they serve their customer. You guys have recognized, you know, that there’s a big hole in arts education because it doesn’t teach the business of art, it just teaches the art of art.
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And the exact same thing is playing out in corporations today, is that they absolutely need to meet and serve the customer. But the skill set of customer centricity and the skill set of customer service is just not there in the way that it needs to be.
[00:14:39] – Joyce Goss
Right. You know, I agree 100 percent. And then, you know, you’ve got the whole with the pandemic, but you’ve also got the whole digital aspect of art, too, which is kind of a little different tangent, I forgot to talk about it earlier, but yeah, teaching, you know, with Instagram and Whatsapp and these other technical applications, I guess, it’s opened up a whole new world for these artists too.
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You know, art is good for business. I mean, you know, even like in banks or corporations just having an art collection, it encourages conversation. You know, it’s a nice respite for the employees to just go sit and stare at a painting if they can. I mean, I think it also stimulates creativity.
[00:15:2] – Claire Haidar
How do you guys see that changing? Because naturally, that would have been one of the biggest drivers of large purchases of art in the corporate world. With the pandemic and how that’s changing things and with work going digital. Where do you see that going? What is your direction, you know, from the foundation’s lens gonna be to artists?
[00:15:46] – Joyce Goss
It’s kind of scary and it’s still kind of uncharted territory. I mean, you know, the museums are all having to refocus. Some of them just now started reopening again. Who knows now, since cases are going back up, they may change it again, but they’re rethinking how art is exhibited, whether it’s, you know, on a virtual platform or if it’s physical within the actual buildings in these museums, which I think you need both.
[00:16:10]
You can look at a piece of art digitally, but when you see in person, it just creates a whole different experience. And so I think we’re always going to have to have the physical viewing of the art, the artists right now, are lucky that they’re able to be able to use a social platform because, you know, otherwise they may not be able to sell any work at the moment with again, the museums and galleries being closed.
[00:16:34] – Claire Haidar
Coming back to your point about, you know, the social connectedness and why art is such a critical piece within work. There’s a few hypotheses that I believe are true and valid for the future of work. The first one is that our workplaces have to become more human. And I think the fact that we’ve just gone through this massive change in how we work has forced us into that. There’s no way that you can expect an entire globe to go back to work after having worked at home for the better part of an entire year and go back to just that like very hard sterilize, this is work, this is home.
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Life is blended now and it’s going to force a more human workplace. But also, my second hypothesis is that the companies who are going to remain competitive and are going to be able to stay in business are going to be those ones that are fully customer centric. And that requires really human skills. And I think art is going to play a very big part of that in the workplace. So maybe share with us some examples of, you know, you were starting down this track of how art actually forms that social connectedness in work and where you’ve seen really powerful examples of it.
[00:17:48] – Joyce Goss
Let’s say you walk into a bank building and you just see a bunch of blank walls, that’s not very stimulating. But if you walk into a bank and you see these beautiful pieces of art, it creates, you know, conversation. I think it just automatically reduces stress. I think it also, for the employees, it increases their creativity in production. I think a lot of times when you just need to take a little bit of a break, if you’ve been staring at your computer all day, sometimes it’s nice to just take a little bit of a walk and go see a beautiful piece of art and just kind of lose yourself for a second.
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But I think also that it kind of works as a social connector, too. I mean, art, if you have two people looking at a painting, I think it bridges people together and they can discuss ideas about what they see. So I think it also is kind of almost a way to network, that might be kind of pushing it a little bit. But I think it does encourage conversations. It kind of tells you a lot about the company too, even the art or, you know, on view in the different institutions.
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I think it tells you about the company and what they represent to. So it’s kind of a way of identification, if you will.
[00:18:53] – Claire Haidar
Coming back to Tracey Emin, who you brought up earlier in the conversation, who was one of the critical people within that YBA group of the 90s. Back in 2011, David Cameron invited her to install a piece of artwork into 10 Downing Street.
[00:19:11]
And it’s one of her neon pieces of art, which she is very well known for, as you would know. And it was the two simple words, “more passion”. I was invited to Number 10 Downing Street as part of a business event a few years back and the contrast of that neon sign in what is a very, very traditional British home, OK, because it’s you know, it’s just so steeped in culture and everything that is British, and just this massive neon sign in the terracotta room right outside David Cameron and his wife’s home.
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It was just so striking that every single one of us business professionals who were, you know, at this cocktail reception, it really got a conversation started. And it wasn’t just because the art was, it was definitively out of place and I think that was very much what Tracey was wanting to achieve with that piece of art, because it was such a contrast. And that is actually what struck the conversation. But it was the words themselves as well, you know, and so the combination of all of it created such a powerful experience that, I think that more than the actual reason why we were there at 10 Downing Street that night dominated the conversation. I think that for me is one of my biggest life moments in terms of how transformative art really can be.
[00:20:42] – Joyce Goss
Oh it can and, you know, Tracey is one of those artists and definitely is, I don’t wanna say in your face, but she will definitely spark a conversation.
[00:20:51] – Doug Foulkes
I am going to move the conversation on and leave corporate behind for a second and I’d like you to tell us about the Playground initiative that you run within the foundation.
[00:21:00] – Joyce Goss
What Playground was, which I wish I could take credit for it, but one of our previous employees and a local artist decided to put together a kind of a summer camp for art, Ariel and CJ the artist, got together with a couple of the teachers in some of the South Dallas area schools to bring art in a summer camp to those children that probably ordinarily wouldn’t get the opportunity to go to summer camp, much less an art-centric summer camp. The teachers and some of our staff members got found objects. And of course, we had paint and we turned our whole gallery space into just a giant art classroom. And we covered the walls with paper and the floors were covered with paper.
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And then we had all these found objects and paint supplies and for a week we just kind of let the kids just be creative. And it was quite fascinating. But there was just a fun event. And the kids really, it was a great opportunity to see how they grew to. In the beginning they were a little bit quiet and shy, but by the end of the week, they were so proud of the work they’d done and you know it brought something out of each of them, which I think was fantastic to.
[00:22:12] – Doug Foulkes
What age groups were these?
[00:22:14] – Joyce Goss
They were elementary and middle school. So a little bit younger kids, which was fun. But it was a great experience for them and for the parents too. At the end of the week the parents came in and got to see the work that their children did. And if they could take it home, you know, they were able to take it home. And we had just an overall fun art camp experience, but we saw a lot of creativity.
[00:22:37] – Claire Haidar
Joyce, that segways very well into my next question that I want to ask specifically about the foundation. How do you guys measure impact?
[00:22:45] – Joyce Goss
We kind of do so many different things, we’re not just one little focus foundation, which is kind of nice that as a private foundation, we’re able to be a little bit more creative, so to speak. So obviously, with, you know, with the art, we’re able to expand and bring the artists to town and then on the philanthropic side, helping organizations locally and internationally such as UNICEF.
[00:23:09]
So how do we gauge. I mean, I think on the art side, the fact that we have been able to bring artists, international artists to Dallas, and some of the students. We have in the past done a lot with Booker T and other schools too, but having the opportunity for these students to see some art that they may never get to see, meet artists that they may never have the opportunity to meet, and not even students, but, you know, just adults as well.
[00:23:38]
We had the first couple of UNICEF experience events, because UNICEF even though it’s world known and people knew what it was, and I think it was 2011 we had kind of one of the first events just to introduce or reintroduce UNICEF to people.
[00:23:55] – Claire Haidar
Moving on to a completely different tack, but still very important because very much looking at you as a person, the human behind this incredible work that you’re doing with Kenny, if you were to Google you, and I know a lot of our readers are going to do this and our listeners are going to do this when they come across this podcast.
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You have a very definitive reputation for your style and your effortless class. Again, coming back to the changing world of work. I threw this question in here because I’m genuinely curious to hear your thoughts around this choice. How do you think the pandemic and the fact that virtual work has now become, you know, we’re going back into a state where it’s going to be blended, but working from home in a virtual way is definitely going to be a very big part of our lives moving forward.
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How do you think impact, the impact is going to be on fashion? And what do you think the impact is going to be on work attire?
[00:24:52] – Joyce Goss
Or even before the pandemic hit, you had design houses like Stella McCartney, who had worked with Adidas and Victoria Beckham with Reebok. So I think we kind of started to see a more casual tone for clothing. But with, you know, Gucci and Balenciaga and all these are others putting their own sneaker lines out.
[00:25:14]
Even Kendall Jenner and Kylie Jenner are putting out a faux city pant or what do they put it on, joggers? I think, faux leather joggers I saw the other day. So I think everyone, the designers are kind of steering toward a more casual, not too casual where you still walk out the door not look like you just came out of the gym. But I think that even when we do go back to a somewhat normal life, I don’t think I personally don’t want to wear tight jeans or tight jackets again, I would like to have the comfort and some high functionality, but still look good.
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So I think that we might see a little bit of a trend, although that said, I still would like to dress up occasionally too. The sneakers and the slides have become the norm for a lot of people.
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Or as you see on the news and a lot of these, they have the dressy side up and then their bottom half are shorts. For their Zoom calls.
[00:26:08] – Claire Haidar
I’m guilty of that one because I’m doing so much recording and virtual conferences and stuff here from the house. And I’m putting this like really fancy, like top on. But at the bottom I’ve got like a pair of tights or joggers on.
[00:26:23] – Joyce Goss
Oh myself, just don’t stand up.
[00:26:25] – Claire Haidar
So yeah, I have openly admitted that. But yeah it is, it really is. You know, it’s so fascinating how this huge shift in work has changed something as human as fashion.
[00:26:40] – Joyce Goss
Absolutely. So I think we’ll probably see a blending of both. I think, you know, still have people that will want to dress up, I mean, I’m guilty of that. And then I have all these great clothes that I bought, pre-pandemic that still are sitting in my closet with price tags on them that I haven’t been able to wear. So it will be nice to be able to kind of get out and start wearing them.
[00:26:59]
But I think we’ll see, you know, I think functionality and comfort will be key factors in the future. I like that.
[00:27:08] – Doug Foulkes
That’s where my designer pajamas come in. I’m going to just move the conversation to another tack Joyce, and just talk to you a little bit as a mother, what are you doing differently to what your parents maybe did with you when you were back on the farm?
[00:27:27] – Joyce Goss
Well, I’m not sure I’m doing too much differently as far as basic values. I mean my daughter now is twenty six. So she, I think, has already learned a lot of her lessons. But as my parents did with me, I tried to instill with her the value of hard work and education and I think one of their rules, which was one of my golden rules, is to always treat people with respect. And so I think that doesn’t really change.
[00:27:53]
But, you know, what’s different now obviously is social media. We didn’t have that growing up. You know, with cell phones and social media I think one of the biggest pieces of advice I gave her, which I guess most people know that anyway, is on social media you need to be careful to not put on something that you don’t want to look at in 10 years because it’ll be on there forever. And also what’s really hard with social media is the comparison game.
[00:28:22]
I think it’s really tough on a lot of people. I find that I kind of fall in that trap too. You get on Instagram and Facebook and you start comparing yourself to some of the other people, which a lot of people only put the good stuff on. So I think just to be careful to not play that game and be careful what you put on. And then as far as you know, in the workforce, you know, sadly, women still have to deal with the economic gender gap.
[00:28:49]
I think more so maybe in the South than even maybe in New York. But just to keep working at it, she’ll have to deal with it. But she’s as smart as is any guy and can do the job. And just to try to break through that glass ceiling.
[00:29:04] – Claire Haidar
You’ve recently traversed cancer, it’s a tough, tough thing that you’ve just fought through. How has it shaped your humanity?
[00:29:14] – Joyce Goss
Well, I definitely have a lot more patience, that’s for sure.
[00:29:17]
I think I’ve always been compassionate, but I have gained a lot more patience, and I think understanding.
[00:29:24]
You know, no one in my immediate family had ever been diagnosed with cancer. So it was kind of a shock. Well, quite a shock when my doctor told me that I had cancer. Of course, those are words no one wants to hear. So I think I’ve definitely become more empathetic to those battling cancer. I now know what it’s like to go through chemo, I know what the side effects are and I have a better understanding what cancer patients endure for sure.
[00:29:49]
Thankfully, I ended my chemo before the pandemic started. I can’t imagine, what it’s like going through that right now and appreciation for the medical staff, I mean, from doctors and nurses and janitors and everyone working in the medical field, especially now, what else has it done?
[00:30:08]
It’s also made me slow down a bit. To be thankful for every day and to be able to, I’ve had an opportunity to spend a lot of time with my daughter. She just graduated law school in May, but she had been here since March. And so I’ve been lucky in that aspect to spend a lot of time with her that I probably wouldn’t have been able to do, and I have started Spanish lessons. I started taking Spanish. Don’t ask anything in Spanish right now because I’d be nervous.
[00:30:36]
But even though I grew up about an hour and a half from the border, when I was in high school, I took French, which has helped me so much. I can read a menu. I think once we’re able to kind of get to a somewhat normal lifestyle, I’m able to travel. I really wanted to work a lot on the border. That’s one of the things I really want to work on more after we can get out and about more.
[00:30:56]
So yes, I’m taking Spanish. Hopefully I’ll be fluent.
[00:31:00] – Claire Haidar
I’d love to close this conversation with you by asking you, coming back to the world of work and the work that yourself and Kenny are doing with artists, what is the biggest set of obstacles that you are currently navigating with them? And what is a message that you would like to leave with our audience based on that?
[00:31:21] – Joyce Goss
Artists have been able to reach through Instagram and WhatsApp, you know, markets in India and China and markets that they would never have been able to be presented to before. So I think digital is helping a lot. I don’t know. We’re all just going to have to see what happens. You know, I know the foundation itself. We’re going to rethink how we do things. We’re definitely going to be more virtual. The art fairs, online galleries, even auction houses are now doing a lot of virtual.
[00:31:49]
So I think it’s we’ll, you know, kind of see a new pattern. Hopefully we’ll all be able to go back to the museums again and galleries. But, you know, for the time being, I think just working on, you know, the digital platforms, which might be a good thing in the long run, I think. I know that the artists will have definitely a larger audience.
[00:32:09] – Claire Haidar
Joyce, thank you so much for being in this conversation with Doug and I today. It’s honestly been an honor and a privilege to spend an hour with you. I know how valuable your time is.
[00:32:20] – Joyce Goss
Oh, thank you. Thanks. It’s been fun.
[00:32:23] – Doug Foulkes
Thank you, Joyce. Your insights can certainly help us paint the world in a slightly different shade. At Chaos and Rocketfuel you can’t say we don’t broaden your horizons. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast and found it of value, please don’t be a stranger. Make sure you pop back for more top of mind conversations. Just a reminder. For more information about WNDYR and the integration services they supply, you can visit their website. That’s WNDYR dot com. And so from me Doug Foulkes
[00:32:54]
and Chaos and Rocketfuel. Stay safe and we’ll see you soon.