A serial entrepreneur and marketing leader, Stijn has contributed to the success of 10+ startups as a C-level executive, including Chief Revenue Officer of Acumatica, CEO of MightyCall, a SaaS contact center solution, and leading the initial global Go-to-Market for Atera, a B2B SaaS Unicorn. Before focusing on startups, Stijn led global SMB Marketing and B2B Product Marketing for the Microsoft Office platform.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] - Stijn Hendrikse
Companies are losing that control that they used to have over the physical environment. So now the only control that's left is that you're a company people actually want to work for.

[00:00:18] - Doug Foulkes
Welcome to Episode 46 of The Future of Work, the podcast that looks at every aspect of work in the future. And as always, it's brought to you by WNDYR for their blog Chaos & Rocketfuel.

[00:00:30] - Doug Foulkes
We release two podcasts each month featuring industry experts and thought leaders discussing how work is changing and evolving. I'm Doug Foulkes. And this week with WNDYR CEO, Claire Haidar, we connect with serial entrepreneur and founder of marketing solutions company, Kalungi, Stijn Hendrikse. Stijn has 15 years of experience helping B2B startups scale at speed.

[00:00:54] - Doug Foulkes
His passion comes from helping and seeing both teams and products step up and add value. Today we jump straight in and discover how marketing has evolved and how large marketing companies are trying to own the entire customer journey.

[00:01:10] - Doug Foulkes
We'll look at one-to-one marketing and discuss the ownership of the data produced. We'll get Stijn's views on whether there should be more or less marketing tools, and we'll get an insight into his brand new book, T2D3, which pulls on his 15 years of experience with B2B startups. Claire, get stuck in.

[00:01:30] - Claire Haidar
I'd like to actually get into the meat of marketing and where you are today. Something very interesting is happening in the world of marketing, and a lot of people don't actually know that this is happening unless they are directly involved in marketing in some shape or form in today's world. The average person out there doesn't really understand the evolution that marketing, and specifically marketing technology inside companies is undergoing.

[00:01:59] - Claire Haidar
What I'm observing is that if you look at major players in the marketing space, companies like Adobe, companies like Salesforce, companies like HubSpot are basically engineering their acquisition strategy.

[00:02:16] - Claire Haidar
So looking at the companies that they require in order to grow their market share, they're engineering those acquisitions around owning the customer journey inside a company from beginning to end.

[00:02:31] - Claire Haidar
The average person on the street, if you go and say to them, what do you know about Adobe? Most people just straight off the bat if they're not involved in marketing, will say to you, Adobe is a company who has Photoshop and all of these other tools, whereas today Adobe is so much more than that, and it's truly on a mission to own the entire customer journey. Is my assessment correct or do you see it any differently?

[00:03:01] - Stijn Hendrikse
Marketing almost falls into two parts when you think of the major players and how both of those sides are evolving, Claire. One, I think is the technology side. So I'll comment on some of the trends you just mentioned. And then there's the other side, which is the content, the art and how art gets created from the written content to the video and how that's evolving. And there are almost two different things.

[00:03:26] - Stijn Hendrikse
So the content side makes it now so that I think every marketer or every company that wants to be taken seriously, that wants to win, that wants to scale has to acknowledge that you are what you create. And unless you create relevant stories, relevant insights, write those up, make sure your audience understands them, you ask the questions; who's it for, what's it for, and try to solve real problems, then it's very hard to be successful. So that's one side, kind of the content part is very important.

[00:03:56] - Stijn Hendrikse
And HubSpot and Marketo and Adobe, et cetera, don't help you with that. What they do, they create this... I call it the one commercial operating system for an organization that is now for very good reason, centered around the customer journey.

[00:04:12] - Stijn Hendrikse
You could argue, Claire, that it should be even more centered around the journey of an individual. And in B2B, those individuals, of course, represent organizations or companies. So multiple people probably are what you would call the business that you market or sell to.

[00:04:28] - Stijn Hendrikse
But in the end, one-to-one marketing, the phrase even was coined in the late '80s, early '90s by Tom Seibel or someone in the early CRM days. Jay Curry, maybe who wrote the first CRM book.

[00:04:44] - Stijn Hendrikse
And if you think of it, that even today, Claire, with modern CRM tools, Adobe buying 55 companies and trying to make it all into one platform and Salesforce doing the same with [inaudible 00:04:57] and the ExactTarget, none of them has really succeeded in making sure that when you arrive at a hotel and you're a platinum guest, that they actually remember what pillow you used the last time.

[00:05:12] - Stijn Hendrikse
So this whole notion of one-to-one marketing, which is not new, with all these technology acquisitions, and I think at WNDYR, you focus on a lot of part of that, right? How the world of work is also very technology-dependent these days. And that they're also the unification and all those technology sort of amalgamations and APS don't really solve the main problem of people just getting more productive.

[00:05:37] - Stijn Hendrikse
The same is true on the marketing and sales side. I think Adobe, Salesforce, they can market that you can buy one platform, but you really can't. Those systems really don't work that well together yet.

[00:05:52] - Stijn Hendrikse
So now you get a new category of technology called CEPS, customer data platform software. You have these new companies, companies like Shackmans that don't do anything else, then pull all this data in and turn it into some kind of BI toolset and allow you to follow that customer journey or the user journey, as I like to say because the Adobes of the world have had a hard time actually solving that even while they own the marketing toolset and the sales toolset and the customer success toolset.

[00:06:25] - Stijn Hendrikse
So we're very far from nirvana there, but things, of course, get better all the time. Like you mentioned HubSpot, HubSpot is one of the few in that space that has built their own CRM for all the phases of the customer journey. So for marketing, for sales, for customer success. So you don't have to connect multiple systems. That's a huge win.

[00:06:44] - Stijn Hendrikse
Then the big concession that you do there is the top spot is not as complete as a lot of the tools that Salesforce, Markera, and Adobe have in those specific areas. HubSpot is a little simpler. And for small companies, typically it's enough, but it's not as capable as Adobe or Salesforce.

[00:07:03] - Stijn Hendrikse
But this is a whole podcast in itself, Claire. But the technology is moving fast, it's solving a lot of problems that it couldn't solve a year ago or 10 years ago. But we're still very far away from fulfilling that original dream of one-to-one marketing and sales.

[00:07:21] - Doug Foulkes
If I put you on the spot, Stijn, how long will it take? You said the first book was written, well, in the '90s, obviously speeding up all the time. Is it a year out, two years out, five years out.?

[00:07:34] - Stijn Hendrikse
There's a huge parallel, I think, with the work that you do at WNDYR, Doug and Claire, the technology is not going to solve everything. And just like whether you use Wrike or Microsoft Office or Slack, you still need leaders who know how to use what tools for what and how to not let the tool dominate, how they either organize a team or lead a company. And the same is true here.

[00:08:02] - Stijn Hendrikse
I think if a marketer and a sales leader still put the customer at the center when they use data to make sure they can service them better or get more relevant content out to them, then I think you can get a lot of those things done today.

[00:08:17] - Stijn Hendrikse
But I think it will take 10, 20 years, maybe forever. Companies will fall in the trap of believing that technology will do everything. And the IT department can buy the marketing and sales platform that will solve every organizational challenge.

[00:08:35] - Stijn Hendrikse
And as long as companies will think of that, then this problem will never completely go away. But we're making a lot of progress, and it's the same, I think in the new world of work, with a lot of productivity tools that access to data and tools becoming smarter with machine learning to get conclusions out of the data and insights, they'll make it easier and easier for people to harness these tools without having to put a lot of extra effort in.

[00:09:00] - Claire Haidar
If you look at, as you say if you look at what's happening in the world of marketing and you look at what's happening in the world of work, there are two very parallel parts that are being run. So you have companies like Microsoft, et cetera, Oracle, SAPs who are trying to own that either the customer journey from a production perspective. So that's like the Oracle and the SAPs, or they're trying to own the customer journey through the employee journey from an actual work tool perspective. So that's like Microsoft in terms of let's own everything that people do on a daily basis.

[00:09:40] - Claire Haidar
As you say, our hard earned experience over just the last five years and working with more than 4,000 companies has shown us is that technology doesn't solve the problem. At the end of the day, it is a truly collaborative effort between humans on the ground and technology.

[00:10:01] - Claire Haidar
So it's humans using technology in a very smart way that ultimately makes work work. And if that isn't happening, it's ultimately always going to be a little bit broken in some shape or form.

[00:10:17] - Claire Haidar
And so what I'd like to really understand your thinking on is, let's say, as you were trying to dive there that we do get to a place where AI and these business intelligence tools are able to make us more effective at doing that one-to-one marketing. I like the example that you gave there. You check into a hotel, and they can actually remember the pillow that you used last time.

[00:10:50] - Claire Haidar
If you take that example, do you see that there is a need to change the tools that their checking agents is using to get the work done to enable that one-to-one marketing?

[00:11:07] - Stijn Hendrikse
That is a very big challenge, and I have no ideas on how to resolve this, but it's been puzzling me for the last five, six years. The ownership of the data, whether it's in the case of the hotel guest and the pillow example or the marketing that we do every day, Claire, buying clicks from Google and spending a lot of money on that, in all those situations, the data is not always owned by the party that maybe should be the owner. The CDP platform providers that sit on all the CRM data that collect it, what do you actually get in return if you're a business who is feeding them that data?

[00:11:46] - Stijn Hendrikse
What you often get in return is that you're allowed to pay them to do that for you. And the same goes with the Google AdWords platform, which is probably the oldest example, and there are many like it where the data ownership and the ability to do something with that data sits with parties that maybe are not interested in optimizing the customer journey or the user journey, because let's use an advertising party as an example. They are not interested in reducing the friction of someone buying your product.

[00:12:18] - Stijn Hendrikse
They like the friction to stay relatively high because that will make you buy more ads.

[00:12:25] - Stijn Hendrikse
And I don't know, the hotel example may be a little easier because I think when a hotel invests in this technology and they're paying a technology vendor to help them make sense of all the data that they get or through their financial system, through their online reservation system, through maybe the system that the hotel cleaning staff uses to update when and what to do with what room in the hotel. I think you can pay a CDP, one of these customer data platform providers to help you do all those things better.

[00:12:58] - Stijn Hendrikse
But if we don't find a way for you to keep some ownership of that data so they can't sell it to others or just use the insights to them to make the product better and sell that to others, I have a hard time really understanding where the incentive really is going to come from to make the journey as easy as it could possibly be today, because a lot of the actors that own a lot of the technology innovation are not necessarily incentive to lower the friction.

[00:13:26] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah, it's a hard problem because think of Marketo at Adobe or Pardot and ExactTarget who were acquired by Salesforce to become their marketing platform. They haven't done a great job in integrating those technologies. And why not? Because I think the amount of money they can make by people having to buy more and more of these tools, even when these tools don't work well together and now you have to buy another one to solve the problem that the first one didn't solve is inherent in the business model to get more revenue out of each customer.

[00:14:05] - Claire Haidar
You're completely making sense. I'm tracking with you, but my own brain is going off in multiple directions here. If we go back to first principles, what do you see as an equivalent problem, but not necessarily work or marketing related that needed to be solved in earlier centuries?

[00:14:28] - Stijn Hendrikse
Well, one is being solved right now. I think when you think of modern capitalism, I had to wrap my mind around this in the last couple of months, Claire, but why is it good to have more than one cryptocurrency, all these new tokens that pop up, tokens that are the proxy for getting food or calorie token. And you wonder, why do we need that?

[00:14:52] - Stijn Hendrikse
In Europe, all the Fiat, the Belgian Frank and the Dutch Guilder, and the German Mark became the Euro because it just makes everything easier. Everybody can transact here.

[00:15:02] - Stijn Hendrikse
So why in the cryptocurrency world do you see it almost going in the opposite direction, instead of everybody is arguing, let's just standardize on Bitcoin and everybody will have... will be so much easier for everybody to use this as one currency. Now you see all these derivatives pop up.

[00:15:17] - Stijn Hendrikse
And the reason, I think, is that modern capitalism doesn't solve the biggest problem of today's society, that wealth is distributed completely in a very unequal way. And as long as all financial metrics in our society are connected to the dollar, for example, then someone who's extremely rich will stay extremely rich.

[00:15:41] - Stijn Hendrikse
And I think what happens now with all these new cryptocurrencies, they almost on purpose try to decouple them from each other. So when you earn tokens that give you access to food, for example, those are not exchangeable for the token that you have that is your financial value, financial worth.

[00:16:00] - Stijn Hendrikse
And so to answer your question, I think that's where society and developers and people who embrace some of these new, relatively French developments in cryptocurrency to solve some of these problems because the companies, and in the case of the financial institutions, the big banks are not going to solve it for us, just like I don't think Salesforce or Adobe or Microsoft, for that matter, have the right incentives, Google, to make it really easier to follow the customer journey, the user journey and make the content more relevant and allow them to lower the friction in their journey when they communicate with us as providers of information of products.

[00:16:38] - Stijn Hendrikse
So I think there has to become some kind of groundswell of innovation that is not necessarily led by the... And that's where startups come in, Claire. So we should be fine.

[00:16:52] - Claire Haidar
Because there is no shortage of startups in this space. Okay. Now I really want to hone in on work, and I want to take these principles that we've been talking about and I want to talk about work.

[00:17:04] - Claire Haidar
Do you think work is going to go in a similar direction to cryptocurrency, where we're just going to see people starting to work in multitudes of different tools, multitudes of different ways, and companies are going to have to build strategies around accommodating all of those things? Because up until now, the tendency in work has been to try and standardize across an organization that's very much being the band of particularly large enterprises.

[00:17:37] - Claire Haidar
It's like we're a Microsoft house or we're a Google house, or we use ghost meeting or we use Zoom and we try to roll that out across the whole organization. Is that a farfetched dream that's literally breaking down in front of our eyes? And what does that mean? What does that mean for companies?

[00:18:01] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah, I think you're right. Companies controlling their employees and the tools they use is over. And I think COVID brought the dead blow. In the startups that I work with, recruiting will never be the same again, Claire. A lot of companies have this desire, this hope, but I think it's decreasing very quickly that they can force employees to get back into the office, for example, or to work towards certain schedules. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen.

[00:18:32] - Stijn Hendrikse
You see it around us, like Microsoft announced, like a date, I think in October that everybody had to come back to the office, and now they've canceled it. And they've not walked away from the mandate, but they definitely have walked away from providing a date.

[00:18:45] - Stijn Hendrikse
And of course, the Delta variant, et cetera, is the real reason. But the underlying reason is that I think companies are slowly starting to realize that, like I have it here at Kalungi, we created a day, Friday in the week, that we call meetingless Friday. We have no meetings on Friday, as an incentive for people to come into the office when it was safe. And everybody got vaccinated because we said, oh, it's so fantastic if you can sit around a whiteboard or have lunch together or coach relatively new people in the team and do it in person.

[00:19:17] - Stijn Hendrikse
And I was, of course, convincing myself that that was a great reason to ask, and sometimes even with a little bit of a nudge and send people to come back to the office in person, also to maybe warrant the rent we're paying here downtown Seattle. And the reality is with giving them a full day without meetings, which is a fantastic boost of productivity in general.

[00:19:37] - Stijn Hendrikse
They can deal with all the tool spaghetti on Friday to update their different systems, et cetera. But it was a nice initial spike of everybody got in here and we had some good Fridays, but it's starting to slow down.

[00:19:52] - Stijn Hendrikse
You can tell. People don't want to commute, they want to sit in the environment that they've designed for themselves so that they're most productive. We've learned to be super effective over Zoom with all those things that you can now do on digital whiteboards, et cetera.

[00:20:04] - Stijn Hendrikse
So I think companies are losing that control that they used to have over the physical environment. So now the only control that's left is that you're company people actually want to work for and where they work with people they want to work with.

[00:20:19] - Stijn Hendrikse
And in the new world of work of I think the next 10 years, the organization that is a hierarchical monolith with tools that are being enforced and IT department that is more about rules than about empowering people, it's going to go away. I think it's going to go away.

[00:20:37] - Stijn Hendrikse
And I think we're even wondering, how much do you still need W-2 type things. And how do you just make sure that you have people who you manage freelancers, although you may pay them in a W-2 way because it's just easier for benefits and taxation, et cetera, but where you constantly fight to keep people interested and they want to work just like you would with a freelancer.

[00:21:00] - Stijn Hendrikse
And if you want a freelancer, fantastic. And you want them to work 100 percent for you, then you better make them want to work 100 percent for you, right?

[00:21:09] - Claire Haidar
Yeah. The project you're sending their way has to be some of the most exciting work that you've got to actually retain them.

[00:21:15] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah. And imagine I'm going to tell Doug what video camera to use. He's not going to stay very excited very fast. And that then goes into tools. Yeah. I like them to track their hours because we don't... It's not for us to check on people, but I want to know how much time goes into what type of clients, what type of work. But if I force those things too much or what communication tools to use, where to store their information, their files, the freelancer of tomorrow who is going to be most of my employees is not going to be very excited to do that work very long.

[00:21:49] - Stijn Hendrikse
We love OKRs, Claire. We use OKRs, because it then allows you to let the... that define the work. Why are we doing the work? Work is the objective. What does success look like? That's the key result. And if you define those well, then you got to let go of the how, the activities and what tools people use and when they work, things like where they work.

[00:22:11] - Doug Foulkes
Claire, I'm just going to just jump in here because time is getting on. And we spoke very specifically about certain aspects of marketing. But I'd like to maybe just talk a little bit about, you mentioned that Kalungi staying, is to maybe talk a bit about what you've done with your past experience. You say you fell into marketing almost. Is it a little bit about Kalungi and what you do differently with your clients?

[00:22:35] - Stijn Hendrikse
What we found in working with smaller software companies, and this may have been a little bit building on the topic we just touched on, it's very hard for a small software company to pay the same amount of money to talented people that the Googles at the Microsoft can. So competing for talent is hard.

[00:22:54] - Stijn Hendrikse
And then when you are small, you have a lot of needs because you need to build your brand, built your website, build your marketing automation system, deal with all those different tools that don't work together very well.

[00:23:05] - Stijn Hendrikse
And getting access to people who've done that before is almost impossible for small software companies. So Kalungi is solving for that problem, Doug. We basically have a small team, closing in on about 100 people that are specialists in all the 15, 20 areas of marketing that every software company needs, from design to marketing automation to content creation to data analytics, and give them a little bit of all those things because they cannot afford fulltime talent in those areas, and they don't need it when they're still that small.

[00:23:37] - Stijn Hendrikse
So Kalungi sells for that. And it's basically also a combination of my 10, 15 years of working with B2B SaaS startups and turning that into a list of things you need to do, a playbook. Even wrote it up in a book that was just published. It was basically just showing companies what to do in what order to get started with their marketing and sales when they're a small software company.

[00:24:02] - Doug Foulkes
In essence, it's almost like an outsourcing model. So start up company without that experience would outsource to you because you've got the experience and the skills?

[00:24:11] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah. The only thing that frustrated me as a marketing consumer as well, when I bought marketing agencies time or hired marketing freelancers, is that while marketing is so measurable these days, it's very hard to find companies or individuals who are comfortable being paid for results or pay for performance.

[00:24:32] - Stijn Hendrikse
That's the other thing that Kalungi tries to do, to say, hey, if you allow us to control all the variables, both do the marketing leadership and do the [inaudible 00:24:41] work, then we'll sign up for results and you'll pay us part of our retainer only when those results get achieved.

[00:24:49] - Claire Haidar
And for me again, this is the dot connecting piece is saying, you guys are owning the marketing journey, which ultimately impacts the customer experience that's being created. So we as a customer of yours, WNDYR as a customer of Kalungi, you essentially are owning right now because you work in such tandem step with our sales team and even our finance team that you guys collaboratively together are owning our customer journey.

[00:25:28] - Claire Haidar
And what we're starting to do as a company is because there's such an integration, if you can call it that, between you guys as a marketing team and our sales team, and because that customer journey is so well defined, we are now able to take a step back and say, well, how do we optimize our employee journey according to that? You know what I mean?

[00:25:51] - Claire Haidar
So together with you, we're creating very specific customer outcomes. And then what we're doing as an organization is we're now looking at that and saying, okay, well, if we want the customer to have this experience at this point in their journey with us, how do we build the team around that?

[00:26:08] - Claire Haidar
And for me, ultimately, that is the beauty of the future of work is that companies, because of how everything is being disrupted, are able to take a step back and say, what is our ideal customer journey and what is our ideal employee journey to meet those customer outcomes? And for me, that's an incredibly exciting place to be here.

[00:26:38] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah, I think you're right. We are trying to help your team in a way that is so helpful that you may not even need employees to do some of that work. And that you can start with that new world of work being partly done by freelancers who are just focused on delivering the results. I wonder at what point in time, by the way, Claire, the word employee needs to be redone.

[00:27:08] - Claire Haidar
Interestingly, at this point, I was actually having a discussion with my brother-in-law this week about it. I don't know if you ever read Ben Horowitz's book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things?

[00:27:18] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah, a long time ago.

[00:27:19] - Claire Haidar
Yeah, he's just brought out another book about culture. And he actually takes a very deep look... highly recommended, by the way. I think you would really enjoy it. He takes a look into all the way back how the concept of slavery actually has defined and underpins what is today employment. And the big question mark is, does that need review?

[00:27:50] - Stijn Hendrikse
If you look at what some people charge on Upwork and on Fiverr, Claire, or in South Africa, I work with them on the board of a company that has a team in South Africa. And I know what we pay for certain type of talent there. The same in the Kalungi team. We have people in South America that are paid, of course, very differently than someone who's in New York.

[00:28:09] - Stijn Hendrikse
And dealing with that question, why are we still doing that? Well, because we can. Yeah, sure. But should we? And on the other hand, I also know that if you pay someone in a small village in Guatemala the same as you pay someone in Harlem, New York, that's not necessarily good for all parties either.

[00:28:32] - Stijn Hendrikse
But it is a very interesting question that will resolve itself I think in the next 10 years, how modern day slavery is, I think, still embedded in some of these new platforms where work gets distributed and gets assigned. I'm not going to compare Upwork or Fiverr to slavery, but there is when you think of how conditions are being managed and how we allow people to do work for what type of compensation, I bet you there are instances if you lift up some of the covers that are not the way we want those things to be.

[00:29:12] - Claire Haidar
Stijn, we've really gone all over the place. But there's a few key things that I've pulled out of our conversation. Is that there's that very refreshing reminder, based on your experience, that technology doesn't solve all the problems, it very often sets out with the mission to solve the problem, but ultimately, they still remain the very real part that human beings play in this collaboration with technology to solve problems. And there's a very real exciting opportunity that companies currently face in that they have the ability to completely reinvent how they're serving the customer and defining that customer journey with their company. And in turn, they have this very exciting opportunity to redefine their employee journey.

[00:30:03] - Claire Haidar
The one key thing going right back to the very first part of our conversation is that if I look at your life experience and how you've sort of without intention, tumbled into the various parts of your career, is that it all started with a point of curiosity. And I think there's something very specific that companies can take out of that. If companies embrace a curious mindset right now, at this point in time, I think some very interesting things can happen.

[00:30:37] - Stijn Hendrikse
The word curiosity is probably one of the most powerful words when it comes to values, employee engagement. It allows people to level up, to have real ownership, to ask why, all those things start with curiosity. Yeah, it's fantastic work to end on, Claire.

[00:30:56] - Doug Foulkes
Just before we do end. And I think it's only fair. Did you know, Claire, that Stijn is just about to publish his... Is it your first book? You mentioned it there briefly.

[00:31:06] - Stijn Hendrikse
Yeah.

[00:31:07] - Doug Foulkes
It's called T2D3. And I read in the [inaudible 00:31:12] that it's inspired by the work that you've done and the team at Kalungi. Can you maybe just give us a 30-second pitch on what the book is about you? What's it for?

[00:31:20] - Stijn Hendrikse
Glad to, Doug. Yeah. We actually officially finished the first edition yesterday. So it is now going through the motions of getting into the Amazon bookstore, so that should appear there in the next couple of weeks.

[00:31:36] - Stijn Hendrikse
It's for people who like to build software companies. It dives specifically into the world of marketing, a little bit of sales, customer success. But really the second part of scaling a company, that's where the acronym T2D3 comes from, tripling your annual recurring revenue two years in a row and then doubling it three more years in a row.

[00:31:57] - Stijn Hendrikse
And it's what typically happens after companies reach product market fit and they get external funding or they become profitable and they want to really go on this fast growth trajectory. And T2D3 is an extremely hard growth curve to hit, but it is the aspiration of most of the B2B SaaS companies we work with.

[00:32:19] - Stijn Hendrikse
So that's what the book is about, Doug. It's for people who work at these companies, people who run these companies, and people who invest in these companies. And it's mostly just writing up what we did in the last 15 years, what we learned. And a lot of things, don't do as do we did, do as we say, because a lot of these things didn't go well the first time we did them.

[00:32:39] - Doug Foulkes
Best of luck with that. That sounds amazing.

[00:32:41] - Claire Haidar
Yeah, Doug, I'm very happy that you did bring that up because we're a customer of Kalungi and hence Stijn. I regularly in our quarterly connect, where Stijn connects with us, I'm picking his brain on this whole T2D3 thing. So I'm definitely going to be reading the book to just dive deeper into the concept that he's regularly teaching us as a customer.

[00:33:08] - Doug Foulkes
And with that small plug for his book, we'll end Episode 46. Thank you, Stijn. Remember, you can catch us on Spotify, Google, or Apple podcasts and WNDYR's website. That's W-N-D-Y-R.com. From Claire and myself, bye for now.